Pozwolenia, zgody ... nie jesteśmy sami!

[Jacek Kalisiak]

Ponieważ ostatnio temat był podnoszony na sympozjum SEKOL, a i na forum przewija się sprawa dosyć regularnie pozwalam sobie podpiąć kilka publicznych wypowiedzi ze Scarab Beetle Taxonomy Discussion List [SCARABS-L@listserv.unl.edu], którego zapewne większość z was nie czyta. Oprócz innych ciekawym aspektem są wystąpienia w obronie handlu owadami i perspektywy kolejnych ograniczeń w dostępie do okazów. Region niby daleki, ale problemy dla entomologów podobne
Teksty w oryginale.

[Jacek Kalisiak]

Greetings From Singapore,

The 71st issue of the Scarabs newsletter has been posted on both of our host sites:

Scarab Central at the University of Nebraska

http://museum.unl.edu/research/entomolo ... letter.htm

and at the Coleopterists Society webpage

http://www.coleopsoc.org/default.asp?Ac ... ID=Scarabs


Olivier Décobert, Rich Cunningham and I wish to thank Jen-Pan Huang for his wonderful article about the genus Dynastes in Ecuador, and to Kent Fothergill for writing our first-ever article expressly for young scarab enthusiasts. I also thank Brett Ratcliffe and Gino Nearns for their prompt attention to posting Scarabs on the World Wide Web.


Cordially,


Barney Streit


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[Jacek Kalisiak]

Dear Barney

I was astonished by the p aper about D. hercules in Ecuador.

as you know, it is frobidden to collect and export...

Mr Huang give the name of Ecuatorian catcher, the selling price of D. hercules.... without to thing about he problems ca&n occur to this men....

This si totaly stupid from a "scientist" but is it realy a scientist ????

Sincerley

patrick


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[Jacek Kalisiak]

Dear Scarab members,

I am writing about the concern raised by Patrick.

My article is about the species ecologies for the Hercules beetles in Ecuador and
the trade market "in the past." (Before the current environmental regulation was enforced).
I also asked the interviewees for agreements about sharing their information.

For these reasons, I wrote this article to share everything I recorded without any hesitation.

If most of you believe that it is not a good idea to do so, we can retract this article.
or Maybe I can do some modification for this paper (e.g., not to show their names).
Let me know if you think I should really retract or modify this paper.

Still, Thanks a lot for Barney and the Scarab society for this great opportunity to publish this article.
and sorry for all the concerns.

Sincerely,
Jen-Pan Huang


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[Jacek Kalisiak]

Hello Patrick,

Thank you for your email. I am actually glad you mistakenly sent it to the entire Group. Over the past few years, I have been considering the idea of writing an article about collecting permits, but never did so because the subject is not really specific to scarab beetles. Now is the perfect time for me to comment on this issue.

Your views on the absurdity of collecting permits are well known. I doubt that anyone in the Scarabs Discussion Group would disagree with you. The idea that “We will allow you to cut down and destroy the forest, but we will not allow you to collect and document the insects from it before it is gone forever” speaks for itself. As usual, this law has exactly the opposite effect that was intended, in my opinion.

I collected in Ecuador a few times with the late Frank Hovore, who was always frustrated by the long, tedious permit process, which was required every time he visited. We enjoyed long discussions about this very subject, to which I shall refer to now.

The premise behind the idea of collecting permits is that collecting harms populations. There are instances where this is true, but for the most part this is not the case. Perhaps the best-known collecting locality in the U.S. is Madera Canyon in Arizona. For years, collectors have set up lights throughout this canyon. The last week in July, all three species of Chrysina will come to light at the top of the canyon. Has the populations of these Chrysina been hurt by all this collecting? I doubt it; they are still common.

Two more instances reinforce this point. One night in Madera Canyon, I had a light set up. Perhaps a dozen Anomala flew in to the light. Yet, not two meters away, there were dozens and dozens feeding on oak leaves, with no intention of taking flight.

Another time, in the Patagonia Mountains of Arizona, I had lights set up and ready to turn on once it got dark. Suddenly, a big cerambycid flew past me, then another. In a few minutes, the air was filled with beetles flying every which way. My excitement grew as I turned on the lights - but nothing flew to them. As darkness fell, still nothing came to the lights.

This indicated to me, as well as to Frank, that light collecting is very, very inefficient. The insects that fly in represent a tiny percentage of what is present. What destroys populations is habitat destruction - not collecting. We in the Group know this, but lawmakers do not.

If collecting and selling insects were promoted, and citizens were educated, then perhaps habitats would be preserved. Jen-Pan mention locals cutting down a Miconia tree in order to harvest Dynastes from it. If these people were taught to plant Miconia trees in cut-over land, instead of destroying them, then the beetle population would benefit. If the citizens in Latin America were able to legally sell insects, they might well act as a force to stop or at least inhibit habitant destruction because they would benefit from selling specimens from these same forests. This - promoting the sale of insects by the locals, and educating them - may be the only solution, since governments do not have the resources to police collecting and illegal deforestation.

Sincerely,
Barney Streit


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[Jacek Kalisiak]

Dear Barney,

Personally I agree with your position.

Legally, the problema is limits. If I said I will collect a hundred of bugs, probably that has no impact at all on the ecosystem, any big bird can do the same (even without a light trap), but… and it’s the same for the law, if I collect a hundreds of jaguars, the dammage will be very big. There is only one law in most of the countries for extraction of fauna. Perhaps it would be better to have a law for vertebrates and another for invertebrates, but it is not so.

I remeber the first time I ask for a CITES permit, officier gives me a form and Information asked was : name of the species, sex, weight, age, and some more details. When I said I didn’t even know the species, the officier looks at me and I can read in his eyes something like: what kind of scientist are you, if you do not know even the species you are dealing with. It was first time he get someone dealing with insects, all permits were for birds, mammals, reptiles, amphibians.

I got today the Project of new Law of protection and use of Biological Diversity, which include the genetic level. That will makes the application of the law even much complex. You collect a bug, but with the bug you carry all the genes of that bug and lots of substances that could be of medecinal or industrial use… thats now another issue. So what can the Environment Officier do with this law. That will be a nightmare in the nexts years. One good point in the law would to take out the scientific collections on non-CITES organisms. That would be a good point. Translate the responsability of science to Universities or science institutions. But, most of the administrations are not confident in deleguate responsabilities.

In one point I insist, before going to collect in a country, ask in this or other list if someone has recent experience. Knowing how to move in the administration could be important to avoid asking wrong permits or in the wrong ministry (environement, agricultura, health, tourism).

Sincerely,
Jean-Michel.


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[Jacek Kalisiak]

Dear All,

My experience here in Suriname (South America) is that the governmental organisation dealing with collecting permits has concerns about two aspects of insect collecting: they are afraid that collectors will make money with it without the country profiting and they are afraid that collecting will harm the natural populations.

The first concern deals with both living specimens which may be bred elsewhere for money as well as saleable dead specimens and the possible use of naturally occuring biochemical compounds by e.g. pharmaceutical companies. I think this concern can easily be addressed, and I'm actually thinking about writing some article about this. It of course boils down to the fact that you can't protect something when you don't know it's there.

The second concern is the quantity of desired specimens. Like elsewhere, the government has virtually only experience with birds, reptiles etc. which go by small numbers. My request to collected 20.000 scarabaeoids over the course of one year (spread over probably more than 500 species) is uncomprehensible for them. My first permit took me over half a year to obtain (they cut it down to 10.000 by then), I'm now waiting for over 15 months for a permit renewal...

Ever changing rules and a very small staff of the issuing department likely play a big part in all the delays. Some people and organisations (like Conservation International) get their permits much quicker though, so there is hope I suppose.

Sincerely,

Auke Hielkema


[...The End]

[L. Borowiec]

Jacku, walka z góry przegrana. W tych ograniczeniach nie chodzi przecież o to by chronić te owady, tylko żeby czerpać zyski z lewego handlu. Cena idzie w górę jak coś jest zakazane, ale ci sami urzędnicy co te zakazy wprowadzili załatwią ci na boku wywóz jeżeli im zapłacisz na lewo. Znam osobiste przykłady. Może w Europie to jest w tym więcej idei niż szwindlu, ale trend na całym świecie idzie w kierunku ograniczania. Z drugiej strony na giełdzie w Pradze podaż jest ciągle spora, choć nie taka jak jeszcze parę lat temu więc zbieracze jakoś sobie radzą.

[Jacek Kalisiak]

Obserwując może nie Pragę, ale podaż w Internecie, to można mieć wątpliwości czy zbieranie owadów powinno być wolne
Z drugiej strony w tych wypowiedziach jest poruszone szereg innych wątków: blokowanie darmowego materiału dla firm farmaceutycznych, potencjalne zyski danego kraju lub jego obywateli, zbieracze i ich zyski jako narzędzie do obrony bioróżnorodności, a prócz tego nacjonalizmy i blokowanie dla swoich. Masz też rację, ze pieniądz rządzi światem.
Chciałem unaocznić jak różne aspekty wchodzą w grę, u nas być może opakowuje się to w idee, ale obawiam się, że to my staramy się tak opakowywać, czy tak interpretować działalność urzędników, ale oni produkują te ustawy kierując się chyba innymi przesłankami...

[Jacek Kurzawa]

Dobry wątek, Jacku.
Dlatego My, entomolodzy, powinniśmy potrafić dostosować się do zmieniającego się świata, albo nawet wpływać - jesli nie na urzędników to chociaż w taki sposób, aby ich "obejść" starając się np o uzyskanie "glejtów" i pism, ktore w jakiś sposób pozwalałyby prowadzić badania terenowe bez narażania zdrowia. Kiedys to PTE stało za entomologiem i dawało legitymację z wpisem, dzisiaj tego nie ma. Może (upraszczam) trzeba wyjsc naprzeciw "wymaganiom" urzędniczym i wykreować własne pozwolenia? Cały czas ta sprawa nie daje mi spokoju.....

[Przemek Zięba]

wykreować własne pozwolenia?

No ale afiliacja jakiejś organizacji jest tak czy inaczej potrzebna. Chyba by udało się wpłynąć na ZG PTEnt...

pomysł jest przedni. z tymi pozwoleniami. W chwili obecnej niektóre instytucje wystawiają glejty, jak chociazby ŚTEnt. na legitymacji których jest zapis o współpracy z Muzeum i to w zasadzie jakaś namiastka jest. Ale sprawa jest głębsza bo chodzi tez o posiadanie okazów......

[Andrzej 54 †]

Dlaczego teraz tego wsparcia brakuje ze strony PTE? Aż taka niemoc dopadła to szlachetne Towarzystwo?

[Grzegorz Banasiak]

To urzędnicza woda na młyn. Z definicji urzędnik powinien służyć, w praktyce - zamienia się w "kapo" pilnującego, żeby petentowi nic się nie udało. Wtedy "urzędnik" ma poczucie wartości i misji a nawet czuje się spełniony.
Uprawianie nauki nie powinno napotykać na większe problemy, afiliacje powinny otwierać drogi badawcze szeroko - jednak precyzyjnie definiować cel badań oraz efekt końcowy. Nie może to być tylko zbieranie dla zbierania bo wtedy z nauką mamy do czynienia w minimalnym stopniu. Niestety trendy rządzenia ludźmi przewrotnie nazywane demokracją, niewiele z jej definicją mają wspólnego. Demokracja w obecnym wydaniu przypomina korporację. Decyzje podejmowane są na samej górze i schodzą stopniowo w dół, rozmydlając się po drodze. Ostatnie ogniwo - urzędnik mający kontakt z petentem tak naprawdę nie ma zielonego pojęcia dlaczego postępuje w określony sposób, ma prikaz i koniec kropka. Możesz się poskarżyć wyższej instancji - czyli przełożonemu urzędnika, ale ten powie, że jemu tak kazali. Wyżej poskarżyć się nie możesz bo skarga odbywa się najpierw do niższej instancji. Utyka to po drodze w bagnie papierków, terminów, decyzji. I tyle w temacie. Uporządkowanie tego b..lu jest praktycznie niemożliwe, bo nikomu na tym nie zależy. Urzędnicze bojówki ślepo wykonują odgórne rozkazy i tak właśnie wygląda rządzenie demokratyczne.

Dlatego Jacku trudno cokolwiek zmienić bo sam system (matrix?) jest do bani !

[Przemek Zięba]

Grześku ująłeś to tak jak trzeba - szczera prawda!!

[Jacek Kalisiak]

Here are my dos centavos:

I also got frustrated with I read the article. I agree with Patrick that the names of the collectors or the fact they are being paid should not be disclosed. The collecting and selling activities they are doing are outside the law and who knows what can happen to them. Governments are known for punishing the poor and weak with strong penalties just to set an example. Also, buying from them only promotes the culture of operating outside the law. The damage is done and there is little that can be done now.

There are many circumstances that can make Illegal (as outside the stupid laws for each country) the right thing to do. At end we are all providing information that will hopefully create awareness about habitats and species. Nevertheless, the subject becomes touchy when money is involved. Collectors working for money are known for creating false information just to appear knowledgeable. They'll lie and cheat just to get more money. They will give you "special deals" or free specimens knowing you will tell your friends and more people will come. If one knows people is cutting trees to get some big bugs then one is directly responsible for the habitat destruction we all are concerned about.

I for one, understand how frustrating can be to try to get permits and be faced with walls and walls of bureaucracy. While doing my undergraduate in Colombia I tried to get a collecting permit because it was lead to believe it was necessary if I wanted to publish. The receipt showing that I applied for the permit was enough for most purposes and everybody was happy with that. Four years later and a world away I was informed the permit was ready for pick up.

Attached is a relevant article by F. Fernández about the issue of doing biodiversity work in Colombia.

Jesús


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[Jacek Kalisiak]

Dear All

Sorry for the topic, but due to bad answer direction, I was just wanting to inform Barney about my position.

Not a way to fight about the "stupids" law of protection ..... but just a point a view about some rules.

Never mention name, place of illegal catcher ( same if everybody use this catcher who are often only meaning to obtain some species important for a study).

Same if the ecuatorian man agree with writen informations, I don't thing he imagines the result for him .

If the paper was only in hands of Scarabs workers, no problems, but due to jealousi beetween some catchers, or of some entomologists, such informations may be given to autorities of the country ......

So, in scientific paper, never write anything about price, because your scientific project will be turned in business project.... (ask to belgium entomologist arrested in Brazil some years ago for illegal intrance in country for bussiness , with tourist visa, and arrested with 8 moths.... (yes 8 moths)..

Please no give any information that will turn up of oportunity to obtain a collecting licence... when it should be possible.
I can write a paper of 5 page , to explain how i obtained such autorisation to collect and export some scarabs, 4 hours before departure of my fligth, despite complete information sent to Ecuatorien Inefan 6 months before through Museum of Paris.....

But if you can change a part of text it will be valuable for all .... it is my opinion.

Sincerely

Patrick


[dalej nie będę kontynułował]